That interview
Edited transcript - interview of Chris Holley by Simon Morris (BBC Wales)
Cross talk and repetition have been removed
David Williams (presenter): “Simon Morris started by asking him why he persuaded the councillor responsible for planning, john Hague, not to send his letter to the chief executive last October.”
CH: “This planning consent went through the planning committee and had that retrospective planning consent so the issue was dealt with. The letter that you comment about when it was discussed with myself and John Hague, I suggested to him that the issue had been dealt with and it was unwise …
SM: “In what sense had it been dealt with? The planning issue had been dealt with but the ethical issue had not.”
CH: “Well I’m here to discuss the planning issue.”
SM: “No, no, it’s the ethical issue. I’m not talking to you as a planning officer, but as the leader of the council, the only man on the council senior to the chief executive who is responsible for ensuring ethics and probity. We’ve got the situation of the chief executive regarded potentially guilty of gross misconduct and yet you did nothing about it.”
CH: “Let’s look at it this way. No-one in October at officer level was responsible, the monitoring officer, none of them brought the issue up.”
SM: “Councillor Hague did, a member of your own Cabinet, and Reena Owen did, also the following week, and discussed the matter personally with Tim Thorogood and expressed her concerns.”
CH: “I don’t know what Reena Owen discussed with the chief executive, all I can tell you …
SM: “You just told me officers weren’t concerned and I’m telling you that they were. It’s in the monitoring officer’s report.”
CH: “It was a planning issue. The planning issue was dealt with.”
SM: “It was an ethical issue. It’s about the conduct of the chief executive. The monitoring officer says at the end of his report that is one of the grounds for concluding he might be guilty of gross misconduct. Yet it was January but you did nothing about it in October.”
CH: “In October the monitoring officer didn’t say that.”
SM: “Why didn’t you mention this contact in the answer you gave councillors today? It didn’t mention John Hague’s contact. There’s an answer from you today and it doesn’t mention John Hague bringing this to your attention or any of that.”
CH: “Because the report was in red papers and not for general circulation.
SM: “But the facts are correct so you can still reveal them here.”
CH: “The facts were in red papers. The table of events that were in there are factual and that’s what happened.”
SM: “But it’s not the complete table of events, though, are they? Very far from it.”
CH: “Well they are there.”
SM: “But they’re not telling the whole truth.”
CH: “Yes.”
SM: “Not the whole truth. It doesn’t mention John Hague bringing this to you in October – it completely glosses over that.”
CH: “It doesn’t gloss over it, It says the truth of what happened.”
SM: “It doesn’t tell the whole truth.”
CH: “It tells the truth of what happened.”
SM: “It doesn’t tell the whole truth, though, does it?”
CH: “It tells the truth of what happened.”
SM: “You’re skating over that aren’t you?”
CH: “I’m not skating over it. I’m telling the facts as they are.”
Cross talk and repetition have been removed
David Williams (presenter): “Simon Morris started by asking him why he persuaded the councillor responsible for planning, john Hague, not to send his letter to the chief executive last October.”
CH: “This planning consent went through the planning committee and had that retrospective planning consent so the issue was dealt with. The letter that you comment about when it was discussed with myself and John Hague, I suggested to him that the issue had been dealt with and it was unwise …
SM: “In what sense had it been dealt with? The planning issue had been dealt with but the ethical issue had not.”
CH: “Well I’m here to discuss the planning issue.”
SM: “No, no, it’s the ethical issue. I’m not talking to you as a planning officer, but as the leader of the council, the only man on the council senior to the chief executive who is responsible for ensuring ethics and probity. We’ve got the situation of the chief executive regarded potentially guilty of gross misconduct and yet you did nothing about it.”
CH: “Let’s look at it this way. No-one in October at officer level was responsible, the monitoring officer, none of them brought the issue up.”
SM: “Councillor Hague did, a member of your own Cabinet, and Reena Owen did, also the following week, and discussed the matter personally with Tim Thorogood and expressed her concerns.”
CH: “I don’t know what Reena Owen discussed with the chief executive, all I can tell you …
SM: “You just told me officers weren’t concerned and I’m telling you that they were. It’s in the monitoring officer’s report.”
CH: “It was a planning issue. The planning issue was dealt with.”
SM: “It was an ethical issue. It’s about the conduct of the chief executive. The monitoring officer says at the end of his report that is one of the grounds for concluding he might be guilty of gross misconduct. Yet it was January but you did nothing about it in October.”
CH: “In October the monitoring officer didn’t say that.”
SM: “Why didn’t you mention this contact in the answer you gave councillors today? It didn’t mention John Hague’s contact. There’s an answer from you today and it doesn’t mention John Hague bringing this to your attention or any of that.”
CH: “Because the report was in red papers and not for general circulation.
SM: “But the facts are correct so you can still reveal them here.”
CH: “The facts were in red papers. The table of events that were in there are factual and that’s what happened.”
SM: “But it’s not the complete table of events, though, are they? Very far from it.”
CH: “Well they are there.”
SM: “But they’re not telling the whole truth.”
CH: “Yes.”
SM: “Not the whole truth. It doesn’t mention John Hague bringing this to you in October – it completely glosses over that.”
CH: “It doesn’t gloss over it, It says the truth of what happened.”
SM: “It doesn’t tell the whole truth.”
CH: “It tells the truth of what happened.”
SM: “It doesn’t tell the whole truth, though, does it?”
CH: “It tells the truth of what happened.”
SM: “You’re skating over that aren’t you?”
CH: “I’m not skating over it. I’m telling the facts as they are.”
posted by Commentator at 8:35 AM
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